Rit vs. Rall

While not a hard and fast rule, a ritardando implies a complete halt is
coming, and doesn't span a more than a few beats of time. Rallentando
implies an upcoming change in tempo and can be applied over several
measures.

Post by Gary Morrison
Dumb question: Do you interpret ritardando and rallentando is
essentially the same? I can't recall interpreting them particularly
differently, and the New Harvard Dictionary seems to think that they're
pretty much synonymous.

Dan McGarvey

2004-06-10 02:59:42 UTC

The key distinction for me is that Rallantando implies a decrease in tempo
with an increase in intensity, where Ritardando implies simply a decrease in
tempo. Example uses.

I have a fast section (say, 144 to the quarter note) at forte, and the next
section calls for a Grandioso at triple forte (say, 80 to the quarter note).
In transitioning, a simple rit. might imply that the tempo decreases
steadily from 144 to 80, and that the dynamic is terraced (unless you mark
it as, rit. e cresc. or have hairpins in the score). A Rall., on the other
hand, would automatically tell the conductor to build into the fff, and even
implies a liberty to slow the tempo to a point well below 80 before entering
the new section.

A good example of a well-used rall. is on the Catalyst recording of James
MacMillan's percussion concerto Veni Veni Emmanuel. The rall. into the
"Easter" section is exploited to the point of bringing the orchestra to
almost a complete standstill while the soloist builds into the subsequent
explosion.

That wordy enough for ya? :)

Dan

alabaster

2004-06-10 18:22:05 UTC

Post by Dan McGarvey
The key distinction for me is that Rallantando implies a decrease in tempo
with an increase in intensity, where Ritardando implies simply a decrease in
tempo. >

I'll second that.

chris.

David Sherman

2004-06-10 19:37:43 UTC

Post by Dan McGarvey
The key distinction for me is that Rallantando implies a decrease in tempo
with an increase in intensity, where Ritardando implies simply a decrease in
tempo. Example uses.
I have a fast section (say, 144 to the quarter note) at forte, and the next
section calls for a Grandioso at triple forte (say, 80 to the quarter note).
In transitioning, a simple rit. might imply that the tempo decreases
steadily from 144 to 80, and that the dynamic is terraced (unless you mark
it as, rit. e cresc. or have hairpins in the score). A Rall., on the other
hand, would automatically tell the conductor to build into the fff, and even
implies a liberty to slow the tempo to a point well below 80 before entering
the new section.
A good example of a well-used rall. is on the Catalyst recording of James
MacMillan's percussion concerto Veni Veni Emmanuel. The rall. into the
"Easter" section is exploited to the point of bringing the orchestra to
almost a complete standstill while the soloist builds into the subsequent
explosion.
That wordy enough for ya? :)

Maybe, but extremely well said.

Thanks for that explanation.

Michael Haslam

2004-06-10 20:15:14 UTC

Post by Dan McGarvey

The key distinction for me is that Rallantando implies a decrease in tempo
with an increase in intensity, where Ritardando implies simply a decrease in
tempo. Example uses.
I have a fast section (say, 144 to the quarter note) at forte, and the next
section calls for a Grandioso at triple forte (say, 80 to the quarter note).
In transitioning, a simple rit. might imply that the tempo decreases
steadily from 144 to 80, and that the dynamic is terraced (unless you mark
it as, rit. e cresc. or have hairpins in the score). A Rall., on the other
hand, would automatically tell the conductor to build into the fff, and even
implies a liberty to slow the tempo to a point well below 80 before entering
the new section.
A good example of a well-used rall. is on the Catalyst recording of James
MacMillan's percussion concerto Veni Veni Emmanuel. The rall. into the
"Easter" section is exploited to the point of bringing the orchestra to
almost a complete standstill while the soloist builds into the subsequent
explosion.

Dan, your explanation came as a complete surprise to me. I've seen and
interpreted rall. in many different contexts with differing intensity
gradients. What you describe for rall. I would associate with largando,
or allargando. Of course rit. and rall. can be made much more extreme by
the addition of _molto_.

I am aware of a theory regarding the interpretation of cresc. and dim.
in eg Schumann and Brahms where they are both to be understood as
implying a broadening of the tempo (hope I've got that right).

Gary, be aware that rit. may be, and usually is, short for ritardando
but can occasionally stand for, or work better as, a ritenuto, which I
interpret as a sudden pulling back to a slower tempo.

MJHaslam

Gary Morrison

2004-06-11 05:32:01 UTC

Post by Michael Haslam
Gary, be aware that rit. may be, and usually is, short for ritardando
but can occasionally stand for, or work better as, a ritenuto, which I
interpret as a sudden pulling back to a slower tempo.

Yes, that's a good point to be cautious of, and relatedly, the
distinction between a ritard and a ritenuto seems pretty clear; not
much ambiguity there.

The distinction between ritardando and rallentando doesn't seem to be
consistently agreed upon. The New Harvard, as I mentioned, seems to
view them as synonymous. Dan McGarvey's suggested difference seems like
a plausible distinction, and seems to have produced the most agreement
at least. I'd have to look over some scores and corresponding
performances to see to what degree that's a commonly accepted
interpretation.

davyd

2004-06-11 22:40:22 UTC

Yes, that's a good point to be cautious of, and relatedly, the
distinction between a ritard and a ritenuto seems pretty clear; not
much ambiguity there.
The distinction between ritardando and rallentando doesn't seem to be
consistently agreed upon. The New Harvard, as I mentioned, seems to
view them as synonymous. Dan McGarvey's suggested difference seems like
a plausible distinction, and seems to have produced the most agreement
at least. I'd have to look over some scores and corresponding
performances to see to what degree that's a commonly accepted
interpretation.

Someone told me that one of them means "slow to a new tempo" and the other
means "slow, then back to the original tempo", but they seem pretty
interchangeable.

Gary Morrison

2004-06-12 03:28:46 UTC

Returning to the original tempo of course is what "A tempo" is about, or
in some usages "tempo primo."

Mark Rimple

2004-06-13 12:07:03 UTC

In my Italian dictionary, the verb "ritardare" means to delay as well as to
slow down, while the verb "rallentare" means to slow down or slacken one's
pace. In fact, "ritardo" means lateness. To me there's a subtle
distinction between the concepts of being late/delayed and slowing down.
The former seems to imply more resistance to overcome, while the latter
sounds more like energy is dissipating. If you're late you have been
delayed by some force or reason... etc. This doesn't mean that both words
retain these shades of meanings for non-Italian speakers.

It's interesting - in the last ten years I've been performing tons of early
music (mainly medieval) and composing new music. In medieval musical
notation you don't find verbal indications of tempo or gradiations of it
except in canonic phrases that describe mathematical proportions, since such
subjective musical elements like rits and ralls were presumably left to the
performer's discretion, if at all. I find myself using fewer tempo markings
to allow my performers the relative freedom that I expect as a performer.
I've had good results, too - in giving them more room to breathe they seem
to come up with what I want.

It would seem to me that the point of a tempo marking is to be as clear as
possible to the performer and to effect some change in the music. This is a
result of both clear language and the context in which the word appears.
Perhaps composers interested in communicating fuzzy ideas like these more
clearly should use English words that have subtle shades of meaning, rather
than Italian words that many English readers don't actually know outside of
their musical contexts? "Halting" vs. "Hesitating" vs. "Relaxing" ??? There
are shades of meaning here, but they're likewise subjective. I am sure that
one (historical) composer's use of "rit" and another's is based largely on
their own musical experiences as performers. Not that there is anything
wrong with the traditional words we find in older and contemporary scores -
I have used them and interpreted them all of my life.

A couple of cents, for what they're worth.... this has been a fun thread to
follow.

--
Mark Rimple
Assistant Professor
Music Theory and Composition
West Chester University

Post by Gary Morrison
Returning to the original tempo of course is what "A tempo" is about, or
in some usages "tempo primo."

Joe Roberts

2004-06-13 22:12:42 UTC

(...snip for brevity, please see Mark's original post.)
I find myself using fewer tempo markings to allow
my performers the relative freedom that I expect as
a performer. I've had good results, too - in giving them
more room to breathe they seem to come up with
what I want.

Agreeing with you wholeheartedly, but with a side note ...

When scoring in notation software where you expect that software to playback
your music to you (e.g. directly through its built-in synthesizer(s), or
through export to MIDI), you're still faced with two decisions:

... how to implement the timing of a tempo variance in the score;

... whether to identify it textually, and if so, what to call it.

If you're implementing a tempo variance such that you hear it in the audio
playback, then (presumably -- I might be wrong here) you would also want to
notate it visibly to convey your intention to another conductor. Otherwise
he or she might simply take your score, hear the audio playback and/or
discuss the score with you, and write in the tempo variance on the spot with
a pencil.

Either way, it's still a rit- or rall-related decision, and (again,
presumably -- could be wrong) something of the nature of "giving it a name"
visibly in the score must enter your mind.

...
A couple of cents, for what they're worth....
this has been a fun thread to follow.

Certainly has.

Cheers,

Joe

Alan Watkins

2004-06-14 03:10:19 UTC

Post by Dan McGarvey

The key distinction for me is that Rallantando implies a decrease in tempo
with an increase in intensity, where Ritardando implies simply a decrease in
tempo. Example uses.
I have a fast section (say, 144 to the quarter note) at forte, and the next
section calls for a Grandioso at triple forte (say, 80 to the quarter note).
In transitioning, a simple rit. might imply that the tempo decreases
steadily from 144 to 80, and that the dynamic is terraced (unless you mark
it as, rit. e cresc. or have hairpins in the score). A Rall., on the other
hand, would automatically tell the conductor to build into the fff, and even
implies a liberty to slow the tempo to a point well below 80 before entering
the new section.
A good example of a well-used rall. is on the Catalyst recording of James
MacMillan's percussion concerto Veni Veni Emmanuel. The rall. into the
"Easter" section is exploited to the point of bringing the orchestra to
almost a complete standstill while the soloist builds into the subsequent
explosion.
That wordy enough for ya? :)
Dan

I interpret them differently but I would think it depends upon the
music (and the age) and upon the composer. For me most Rits are a
sudden slowing whereas (for example)in Dvorak Ralls are virtually bar
by bar. Dvorak (Slavonic Dances Op 46/72) shows he is a master of
Rall.

I recorded these works with Mr Altricher, a master of rall in my
opinion, and utterly faithful to Dvorak's "ralls" and I think he got
rubbished as a result.

Either way I would say that rit is a sudden pull back and rall is a
gradual pull back but that is just an opinion and others may see it
differently.

Kind regards,
Alan M. Watkins

Kind regards,
Alan M. Watkins

Nightingale

2004-06-14 03:22:54 UTC

Post by Alan Watkins
Either way I would say that rit is a sudden pull back and rall is a
gradual pull back but that is just an opinion and others may see it
differently.

I see them both as meaning "watch the conductor".

--
The better the voyce is, the meeter it is to honour and
serve God there-with: and the voyce of man is chiefely
to be imployed to that ende.

Omnis spiritus laudet Dominum.

-William Byrd

Alan Watkins

2004-06-16 22:47:32 UTC

Post by Nightingale

Post by Alan Watkins
Either way I would say that rit is a sudden pull back and rall is a
gradual pull back but that is just an opinion and others may see it
differently.

I see them both as meaning "watch the conductor".

Yes, agreed with that (depending upon the conductor) but Dvorak
certainly uses rall bar by bar and that's one of the "devices" that
makes the Slavonic Dances what they are (among other works by him).
The Spectres Bride and Rusalka are two more "rall" pieces. I have
never counted them and I am not going to start now but I would suspect
rall to be his most frequent instruction.

Kind regards,
Alan M. Watkins

Gary Morrison

2004-06-16 17:23:17 UTC

For me most Rits are a sudden slowing whereas ...

Are you sure you're not thinking of ritenuto rather than ritardando?
Everybody, including the New Harvard dictionary seems to agree that
ritenuto is a sudden reduction in tempo.

Dr.Matt

2004-06-16 17:38:11 UTC

For me most Rits are a sudden slowing whereas ...

Are you sure you're not thinking of ritenuto rather than ritardando?
Everybody, including the New Harvard dictionary seems to agree that
ritenuto is a sudden reduction in tempo.

When I think of a Rits I think of an overly sugary, salty, fatty
cracker (that's biscuit to the folks on the other side of the pond).

--
Matthew H. Fields http://personal.www.umich.edu/~fields
Music: Splendor in Sound
"Hey, don't knock Placebo, its the only thing effective for my hypochondria."
Brights have a naturalistic world-view. http://www.the-brights.net/

Nightingale

2004-06-16 17:52:09 UTC

For me most Rits are a sudden slowing whereas ...

Are you sure you're not thinking of ritenuto rather than ritardando?
Everybody, including the New Harvard dictionary seems to agree that
ritenuto is a sudden reduction in tempo.

When I think of a Rits I think of an overly sugary, salty, fatty
cracker (that's biscuit to the folks on the other side of the pond).

Is that those horrible orange coloured things?

--
Blessed Cecilia, appear in visions
To all musicians, appear and inspire:
Translated Daughter, come down and startle
Composing mortals with immortal fire.

Jerry Kohl

2004-06-16 18:08:14 UTC

For me most Rits are a sudden slowing whereas ...

Are you sure you're not thinking of ritenuto rather than ritardando?
Everybody, including the New Harvard dictionary seems to agree that
ritenuto is a sudden reduction in tempo.

When I think of a Rits I think of an overly sugary, salty, fatty
cracker (that's biscuit to the folks on the other side of the pond).

If you're blue and you don't know where
to go to why don't you go where fashion sits ...
consult your Berlitz

(before visiting the UK and ordering tea and bikkies ...)

--
Jerry Kohl <***@comcast.net>
"Légpárnás hajóm tele van angolnákkal."

Michael Haslam

2004-06-16 19:22:59 UTC

Post by Jerry Kohl

For me most Rits are a sudden slowing whereas ...

Are you sure you're not thinking of ritenuto rather than ritardando?
Everybody, including the New Harvard dictionary seems to agree that
ritenuto is a sudden reduction in tempo.

When I think of a Rits I think of an overly sugary, salty, fatty
cracker (that's biscuit to the folks on the other side of the pond).

If you're blue and you don't know where
to go to why don't you go where fashion sits ...
consult your Berlitz
(before visiting the UK and ordering tea and bikkies ...)

Funnily enough, we've always used the word "cracker" for the biscuits
traditionally eaten with cheese: [Jacob's] Cream Crackers, which have no
cream in them AFAIAA.

Nice Berlin tribute, btw.

MJHaslam

Jerry Kohl

2004-06-16 19:52:27 UTC

Post by Michael Haslam

Post by Jerry Kohl

For me most Rits are a sudden slowing whereas ...

Are you sure you're not thinking of ritenuto rather than ritardando?
Everybody, including the New Harvard dictionary seems to agree that
ritenuto is a sudden reduction in tempo.

When I think of a Rits I think of an overly sugary, salty, fatty
cracker (that's biscuit to the folks on the other side of the pond).

If you're blue and you don't know where
to go to why don't you go where fashion sits ...
consult your Berlitz
(before visiting the UK and ordering tea and bikkies ...)

Funnily enough, we've always used the word "cracker" for the biscuits
traditionally eaten with cheese: [Jacob's] Cream Crackers, which have no
cream in them AFAIAA.

Exactly my point.

Post by Michael Haslam
Nice Berlin tribute, btw.

Ta very much!

--
Jerry Kohl <***@comcast.net>
"Légpárnás hajóm tele van angolnákkal."

Peter T. Daniels

2004-06-16 20:36:39 UTC

For me most Rits are a sudden slowing whereas ...

Are you sure you're not thinking of ritenuto rather than ritardando?
Everybody, including the New Harvard dictionary seems to agree that
ritenuto is a sudden reduction in tempo.

When I think of a Rits I think of an overly sugary, salty, fatty
cracker (that's biscuit to the folks on the other side of the pond).

No, their biscuits are our cookies.

--
Peter T. Daniels ***@att.net

Dr.Matt

2004-06-16 20:40:12 UTC

For me most Rits are a sudden slowing whereas ...

Are you sure you're not thinking of ritenuto rather than ritardando?
Everybody, including the New Harvard dictionary seems to agree that
ritenuto is a sudden reduction in tempo.

When I think of a Rits I think of an overly sugary, salty, fatty
cracker (that's biscuit to the folks on the other side of the pond).

No, their biscuits are our cookies.

Check again.

Mark & Steven Bornfeld DDS

2004-06-16 21:07:55 UTC

For me most Rits are a sudden slowing whereas ...

Are you sure you're not thinking of ritenuto rather than ritardando?
Everybody, including the New Harvard dictionary seems to agree that
ritenuto is a sudden reduction in tempo.

When I think of a Rits I think of an overly sugary, salty, fatty
cracker (that's biscuit to the folks on the other side of the pond).

No, their biscuits are our cookies.

Wht do they call brownies?

Steve

--
Mark & Steven Bornfeld DDS
http://www.dentaltwins.com
Brooklyn, NY

Peter T. Daniels

2004-06-16 21:47:46 UTC

For me most Rits are a sudden slowing whereas ...

Are you sure you're not thinking of ritenuto rather than ritardando?
Everybody, including the New Harvard dictionary seems to agree that
ritenuto is a sudden reduction in tempo.

When I think of a Rits I think of an overly sugary, salty, fatty
cracker (that's biscuit to the folks on the other side of the pond).

No, their biscuits are our cookies.

Wht do they call brownies?

Elves? leprechauns? Girl Guides?

--
Peter T. Daniels ***@att.net

Michael Haslam

2004-06-16 21:52:51 UTC

Post by Peter T. Daniels
No, their biscuits are our cookies.

Wht do they call brownies?

Elves? leprechauns? Girl Guides?

Girl Guides are older than Brownies, I thought everyone knew that. And
Rangers are even older than Guides.

MJHaslam

Mark & Steven Bornfeld DDS

2004-06-16 22:00:12 UTC

Post by Michael Haslam

Post by Peter T. Daniels
No, their biscuits are our cookies.

Wht do they call brownies?

Elves? leprechauns? Girl Guides?

Girl Guides are older than Brownies, I thought everyone knew that. And
Rangers are even older than Guides.
MJHaslam

How old are the strumpets?

Steve

--
Mark & Steven Bornfeld DDS
http://www.dentaltwins.com
Brooklyn, NY

Laurence Payne

2004-06-16 23:54:09 UTC

Post by Michael Haslam
Girl Guides are older than Brownies, I thought everyone knew that. And
Rangers are even older than Guides.

Brownies are now called Rainbows.

the_nerd

2004-06-20 09:10:02 UTC

A small child turns to Ed, and exclaims: "Look! Look! A post from

Post by Laurence Payne
Brownies are now called Rainbows.

Rainbows are younger than brownies
Brownies still exist. Or at least are very good at giving off an illusion
of their existence

--
Ed Bennett - MVP Microsoft Publisher
http://www.mvps.org/the_nerd/
Before reading this message, view the disclaimer:
http://mvps.org/the_nerd/disclaim.htm

Walter Bushell

2004-06-23 00:01:25 UTC

For me most Rits are a sudden slowing whereas ...

Are you sure you're not thinking of ritenuto rather than ritardando?
Everybody, including the New Harvard dictionary seems to agree that
ritenuto is a sudden reduction in tempo.

When I think of a Rits I think of an overly sugary, salty, fatty
cracker (that's biscuit to the folks on the other side of the pond).

No, their biscuits are our cookies.

Wht do they call brownies?

Elves? leprechauns? Girl Guides?

cockroaches.

Dr.Matt

2004-06-16 22:15:24 UTC