Discussion:
Which band was better: New Order or Depeche Mode?
(too old to reply)
The Magnificent Bastard
2003-07-16 23:57:22 UTC
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Go!
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Wavy G
2003-07-17 00:11:18 UTC
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For over a thousand generations the atr-w trolls were the guardians of peace
and justice on Usenet....Before the Dark Times....Before The Magnificent
Go!
I like Depeche Mode better because I like icecream.


Love always,
Wavy G.
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WHEE.
±
2003-07-17 00:29:16 UTC
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Post by The Magnificent Bastard
Go!
Marci is resident New Wave expert around here - ask her.
Post by The Magnificent Bastard
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Aaron Henne claims to be untrollable:

From: flaXagg <***@the.sig>
Message-ID: <***@TeraNews>
Date: Sat, 12 Jul 2003 03:16:06 GMT

Oh, stop wasting your time shooting the messenger. He wears Kevlar.

-
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http://flaagg.home.comcast.net/
|_| |_| |_|_| |_|_| |_| |_| /_//_/\_\_____|
Aaron Henne
flaagg at comcast dot net
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Aaron Henne admits he was trolled:

From: Flaagg <***@REMOVE_TO_EMAIL_attbi.com>
Newsgroups:
alt.alien.vampire.flonk.flonk.flonk,alt.fan.karl-malden.nose,alt.flame,alt.snuh,alt.usenet.kooks
Subject: Fuck This. Flaagg blinks.
Message-ID: <***@netnews.attbi.com>
Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 12:15:05 GMT

I don't know Little Toad's name. No-one has ever told me Little
Toad's name. I have no idea who Text Medium is.

I was trying to play lightning rod. There's some fucking pathetic,
creepy shit going on around here, and I thought people might chill
out a little if they could watch their act thrown back at them.

I'm not claiming troll here. I screwed up, and probably made it
worse. If so, I apologize.

-
Aaron M. Henne mhm9x2
http://home.attbi.com/~flaagg
The Magnificent Bastard
2003-07-17 04:53:49 UTC
Permalink
On Wed, 16 Jul 2003 21:49:15 -0700, in alt.tv.real-world marci puts the
lotion on its skin or else it gets the hose again. It does this whenever
it's told -
On Wed, 16 Jul 2003 18:57:22 -0500, The Magnificent Bastard
Go!
hm. that's a hard won.
have you heard dave gahan's solo album yet?
I haven't heard it. If you have, what is your opinion of it?
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Lothar
2003-07-17 05:49:44 UTC
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Completely irrelevant question, it all depends on your personal taste,
right? And why crosspost to Beatles and Sopranos newsgroups?
±
2003-07-17 06:22:41 UTC
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Post by Lothar
Completely irrelevant question, it all depends on your personal taste,
right? And why crosspost to Beatles and Sopranos newsgroups?
Or rec.music.compose, for that mater.

BTW - Have you ever found the Hand People?
Dr.Matt
2003-07-17 13:58:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lothar
Completely irrelevant question, it all depends on your personal taste,
right? And why crosspost to Beatles and Sopranos newsgroups?
to get the best cross sampling of usenet opinion possible?
To troll
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±
2003-07-18 01:01:49 UTC
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Post by Dr.Matt
Post by Lothar
Completely irrelevant question, it all depends on your personal taste,
right? And why crosspost to Beatles and Sopranos newsgroups?
to get the best cross sampling of usenet opinion possible?
To troll
Where's there trolls?
Post by Dr.Matt
--
Matthew H. Fields http://personal.www.umich.edu/~fields
Music: Splendor in Sound
Brights have a naturalistic world-view. http://www.the-brights.net/
Graybags
2003-07-17 23:04:49 UTC
Permalink
Better at what? hairstyles? Dmode... bad fashion casualties? Dmode...
failed suicides? Dmode...
Music? they were not even in the same galaxy...
Indeed, the Mode again.
HatchetMama
2003-07-18 17:02:48 UTC
Permalink
On Wed, 16 Jul 2003 18:57:22 -0500, in alt.tv.real-world The
Go!
ummm, ew and ew.
Accylad
2003-07-27 18:01:29 UTC
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Well...........

Dave Gahan can sing.

Bernard Sumner can't.

End of competition.

Accylad
Post by The Magnificent Bastard
Go!
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Jim Ross
2003-07-27 22:55:53 UTC
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Post by Accylad
Well...........
Dave Gahan can sing.
Since when?
mave
2003-08-03 10:03:25 UTC
Permalink
I fail to see what relevance any of this has to the original (and
pointless) premise.
Bernard can't sing. So? His near monotone style and intonations
fit into to their music well. Can you imagine 1963 sung by Dave?
Can you imagine I Feel You sung by Bernard? "I feeeeeeel youuu...
falling asleep...."
Does D'mode have a bassist like Peter Hook?
What, a grizzled one-trick pony who can't get over his inability write
anything decent that doesn't sound exactly like New Order? At least
Dave can find his own way, musically speaking, without having to fall
back on the safety net of sounding like the band that made him famous.
The same cannot be said of Bernard and Electronic.
Does New Order command melody recognition like D'mode?
Just Can't Get Enough? Blue Monday? Enjoy The Silence? World In Motion?
uhh... we'll let them have the football chant crown, thanks.
What song of D'mode's has percussion as complex as Order's?
Quite how this fits into any kind of 'pros and cons' comparison eludes
me. What song of New Order's has such imaginative use of samples as DM?
What song of New Order's uses a full 26-piece orchestra? See? All
equally arbitrary comparisons, and all equally unhelpfull.
D'mode needs how many k'boardists? and Order uses?
Well, DM only need one actually. Fletch is there just for show. Like
Gillian.
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mave
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technocon
2003-08-03 23:58:59 UTC
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Post by mave
I fail to see what relevance any of this has to the original (and
pointless) premise.
Well, how can you compare the groups and decide which was better without
comparing them?
Post by mave
Bernard can't sing. So? His near monotone style and intonations
fit into to their music well. Can you imagine 1963 sung by Dave?
Can you imagine I Feel You sung by Bernard? "I feeeeeeel youuu...
falling asleep...."
Contrasting vocal styles. That was my point.
Post by mave
Does D'mode have a bassist like Peter Hook?
What, a grizzled one-trick pony who can't get over his inability write
anything decent that doesn't sound exactly like New Order? At least
Dave can find his own way, musically speaking, without having to fall
back on the safety net of sounding like the band that made him famous.
The same cannot be said of Bernard and Electronic.
Agreed. Monaco was a flop. But Bernard had Johnny Marr (The Smiths)
to collaborate with as well as Neil Tennant on a few early songs. And the
Peter Hook reference only helped with the last paragraphs in my original
post, where I stated that New Order's older stuff is usually considered
better than the newer.
Post by mave
Does New Order command melody recognition like D'mode?
Just Can't Get Enough? Blue Monday? Enjoy The Silence? World In Motion?
uhh... we'll let them have the football chant crown, thanks.
Bizarre Love Triangle, True Faith, Subculture. Master and Servant, Personal
Jesus,
Everything Counts.... and by football, you meant what us yanks call soccer,
right?
Post by mave
What song of D'mode's has percussion as complex as Order's?
Quite how this fits into any kind of 'pros and cons' comparison eludes
me. What song of New Order's has such imaginative use of samples as DM?
What song of New Order's uses a full 26-piece orchestra? See? All
equally arbitrary comparisons, and all equally unhelpfull.
Well, I'm partial to the frogs in Perfect Kiss. :S
Post by mave
D'mode needs how many k'boardists? and Order uses?
Well, DM only need one actually. Fletch is there just for show. Like
Gillian.
Well, I have to disagree. Most of late 80's on Order songs were heavily
dependent on her keyboarding. Not to mention she also helps out Stephen
on drum programming, though he triggers most of it through pads. She was
one of the prime reasons Peter left the band in the 90's: her programming
of synth bass lines and the engineers' tendancy to mix his bass down.
Arguably, without her, the band might not have made it out of the
shadow which was Joy Division.
Post by mave
--
mave
Now, to address the relevance of what I posted, I'll redirect you to the
final paragraphs of my original post.
*peace*
mave
2003-08-05 03:51:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by technocon
and by football, you meant what us yanks call soccer,
right?
yes, but any team sport where the 'players' aren't encased in body
armour and need to suck on oxygen tanks after running 50 yards would
suffice, just like any tournament that has the word 'world' in the
title and actually involves non-americans ;-)
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mave
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mave
2003-08-03 10:04:02 UTC
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Does anyone remember the Casio VL-Tone? Oh, wait... Human League
helped make that one famous....
Actually, that was Trio with Da Da Da
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mave
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Ka-el
2003-08-09 07:50:03 UTC
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New Order vs DMode? hard to tell who's better? let's see?
well, who sold more albums? who's better playing live concert? who's
got more
international and commercial success? which band had more chart hits
around
the world? not to be bias w/ Dmode, I'm a new order fan too.. correct
me if I'm wrong, but DMode kicks new order's behind in every
category..

"It's simplicity best, or simply the easiest"
Ka-eL
AJ Wells
2003-08-09 14:51:46 UTC
Permalink
I think when defining "better" you have to start with two artists who were
actually taken seriously from the start... Dmode were considered a joke at
their inception, listened to only by hairdressers and boys who were beaten
up a little too regularly... only time "legitimized" them... you cant really
argue about these two bands in the same breath at all, regardless of how you
feel about them now... its sort of like saying "which is better, Picasso or
Jeff Koons?" I mean you just give away your complete ignorance by even
asking the question...

Ajw
Post by Ka-el
New Order vs DMode? hard to tell who's better? let's see?
well, who sold more albums? who's better playing live concert? who's
got more
international and commercial success? which band had more chart hits
around
the world? not to be bias w/ Dmode, I'm a new order fan too.. correct
me if I'm wrong, but DMode kicks new order's behind in every
category..
"It's simplicity best, or simply the easiest"
Ka-eL
paleophile
2003-08-09 22:10:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by AJ Wells
I think when defining "better" you have to start with two artists who
were actually taken seriously from the start... Dmode were considered
a joke at their inception, listened to only by hairdressers and boys
who were beaten up a little too regularly
Considered a joke by whom? I'd say countless good reviews from critics and
four consecutive top ten hits upon their inception put DM well out of the
category of a "joke". Unless you mean to say that the whole of Britian is
composed of "hairdressers and boys who were beaten up a little too
regularly"; but that would be absurd.

It's one thing to argue taste, but if you're going to argue facts, get them
right.
--
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"We don't do photo sessions any more. We had physical dummies,
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AJ Wells
2003-08-10 14:28:11 UTC
Permalink
Um check your NME's and MM's from the early early 80s and you will find
DMode treated as the joke they were (and are)... and around the time of PCL
there was a mainstream article (I think in the NYtimes or Village Voice)
that likened Dmode and the rest of the "technopop" field to "twittering toy
music" compared to NO's "trapped, stinging sense of otherness"... thats a
hard comparison to forget but it gives you a sense of the actual context of
the time...

By the way where were you in 1981?

Ajw
Post by paleophile
Post by AJ Wells
I think when defining "better" you have to start with two artists who
were actually taken seriously from the start... Dmode were considered
a joke at their inception, listened to only by hairdressers and boys
who were beaten up a little too regularly
Considered a joke by whom? I'd say countless good reviews from critics and
four consecutive top ten hits upon their inception put DM well out of the
category of a "joke". Unless you mean to say that the whole of Britian is
composed of "hairdressers and boys who were beaten up a little too
regularly"; but that would be absurd.
It's one thing to argue taste, but if you're going to argue facts, get them
right.
--
-paleophile (ask for e-mail)
"We don't do photo sessions any more. We had physical dummies,
replicas of ourselves made. They are plastic and more resistant to
photographs." --Ralf Hütter
mave
2003-08-10 20:01:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by AJ Wells
Um check your NME's and MM's from the early early 80s and you will find
DMode treated as the joke they were (and are)...
Treated as a joke by who? desperate museo journalists who were all so
sycophantic that their tongues were far enough up the arses of Bernard
Sumner/Morrisey/Ian McCulloch/Bobby Gillespie (insert name of pseudo
angst merchant here) to taste what they'd had for breakfast?
Hmmm... a fine barrometer of worthiness, then.
Post by AJ Wells
and around the time of PCL
there was a mainstream article (I think in the NYtimes or Village Voice)
New York Times??? New York Fucking Times???? Well if they didn't like
DM then they *must* have been crap, huh? Can't argue with the towering
monolith of musical taste that is the New York Times... jesus
Post by AJ Wells
that likened Dmode and the rest of the "technopop" field to "twittering toy
music" compared to NO's "trapped, stinging sense of otherness"
one man's 'trapped, stinging sense of otherness' is another man's
'over-wrought, emotionally stagnant sense of having heard it all
before'
Post by AJ Wells
By the way where were you in 1981?
What the fuck's that got to do with anything? What is this? "I've been
into pop music longer than you, so my opinion beats yours"???

Please take the time to reconsider your posts before embarrassing
yourself like this again. On second thoughts, don't. Feel free to go
ahead and make as big a cock of yourself as you can, I could do with
the laughs.
--
mave
----------------------------------------------------
drugs... rock 'n' roll... bad-ass vegas whores...
late-night booty calls... shiny disco balls...


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Ian
2003-08-10 22:20:34 UTC
Permalink
Of all the pointless things in the world to do. I think attempting to
convice a Depeche Mode fan that he's wasted the last 22 years of his life
listening to a pile of wank is possibly the most fruitless task one could
undertake. It's true like but still...
Post by mave
Post by AJ Wells
Um check your NME's and MM's from the early early 80s and you will find
DMode treated as the joke they were (and are)...
Treated as a joke by who? desperate museo journalists who were all so
sycophantic that their tongues were far enough up the arses of Bernard
Sumner/Morrisey/Ian McCulloch/Bobby Gillespie (insert name of pseudo
angst merchant here) to taste what they'd had for breakfast?
Hmmm... a fine barrometer of worthiness, then.
Post by AJ Wells
and around the time of PCL
there was a mainstream article (I think in the NYtimes or Village Voice)
New York Times??? New York Fucking Times???? Well if they didn't like
DM then they *must* have been crap, huh? Can't argue with the towering
monolith of musical taste that is the New York Times... jesus
Post by AJ Wells
that likened Dmode and the rest of the "technopop" field to "twittering toy
music" compared to NO's "trapped, stinging sense of otherness"
one man's 'trapped, stinging sense of otherness' is another man's
'over-wrought, emotionally stagnant sense of having heard it all
before'
Post by AJ Wells
By the way where were you in 1981?
What the fuck's that got to do with anything? What is this? "I've been
into pop music longer than you, so my opinion beats yours"???
Please take the time to reconsider your posts before embarrassing
yourself like this again. On second thoughts, don't. Feel free to go
ahead and make as big a cock of yourself as you can, I could do with
the laughs.
--
mave
----------------------------------------------------
drugs... rock 'n' roll... bad-ass vegas whores...
late-night booty calls... shiny disco balls...
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paleophile
2003-08-11 00:00:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ian
Of all the pointless things in the world to do. I think attempting to
convice a Depeche Mode fan that he's wasted the last 22 years of his
life listening to a pile of wank is possibly the most fruitless task
one could undertake.
Ahem...try doing this with ANY big fan of ANY BAND and you'll end up with
the same exact result...an inability to do it. People like the music they
like and that's pretty much the end of it. For you to use such an argument
to say that DM fans are any different than any other fan (and New Order fans
for that matter) is just plain fallacious.

I could sit here trying to explain to you why I think New Order is generally
overrated and musically uninteresting aside from a few nice hooks but THAT
would be pointless as well. Not to mention arrogant on my part.
--
-paleophile (ask for e-mail)

"We don't do photo sessions any more. We had physical dummies,
replicas of ourselves made. They are plastic and more resistant to
photographs." --Ralf Hütter
AJ Wells
2003-08-11 14:40:22 UTC
Permalink
Actually until recent years, New Order fans WERE different from other music
fans... or at least the ones I knew were...

And OF COURSE its arrogant to try and convince someone of your position, but
isnt that what pop music does effortlessly and what critical music fans have
a responsibility to do?

Ajw
Post by paleophile
Post by Ian
Of all the pointless things in the world to do. I think attempting to
convice a Depeche Mode fan that he's wasted the last 22 years of his
life listening to a pile of wank is possibly the most fruitless task
one could undertake.
Ahem...try doing this with ANY big fan of ANY BAND and you'll end up with
the same exact result...an inability to do it. People like the music they
like and that's pretty much the end of it. For you to use such an argument
to say that DM fans are any different than any other fan (and New Order fans
for that matter) is just plain fallacious.
I could sit here trying to explain to you why I think New Order is generally
overrated and musically uninteresting aside from a few nice hooks but THAT
would be pointless as well. Not to mention arrogant on my part.
--
-paleophile (ask for e-mail)
"We don't do photo sessions any more. We had physical dummies,
replicas of ourselves made. They are plastic and more resistant to
photographs." --Ralf Hütter
AJ Wells
2003-08-11 14:38:06 UTC
Permalink
Hey I've convinced even lovers of a gawdawful bomb like Get Ready that they
have wasted some of their precious time on a failure, and they are far
harder to persuade as most of them are of legal age... Dmode fans are much
easier because they grow up and usually wake up...

Ajw
Post by Ian
Of all the pointless things in the world to do. I think attempting to
convice a Depeche Mode fan that he's wasted the last 22 years of his life
listening to a pile of wank is possibly the most fruitless task one could
undertake. It's true like but still...
Post by mave
Post by AJ Wells
Um check your NME's and MM's from the early early 80s and you will find
DMode treated as the joke they were (and are)...
Treated as a joke by who? desperate museo journalists who were all so
sycophantic that their tongues were far enough up the arses of Bernard
Sumner/Morrisey/Ian McCulloch/Bobby Gillespie (insert name of pseudo
angst merchant here) to taste what they'd had for breakfast?
Hmmm... a fine barrometer of worthiness, then.
Post by AJ Wells
and around the time of PCL
there was a mainstream article (I think in the NYtimes or Village Voice)
New York Times??? New York Fucking Times???? Well if they didn't like
DM then they *must* have been crap, huh? Can't argue with the towering
monolith of musical taste that is the New York Times... jesus
Post by AJ Wells
that likened Dmode and the rest of the "technopop" field to
"twittering
Post by Ian
toy
Post by mave
Post by AJ Wells
music" compared to NO's "trapped, stinging sense of otherness"
one man's 'trapped, stinging sense of otherness' is another man's
'over-wrought, emotionally stagnant sense of having heard it all
before'
Post by AJ Wells
By the way where were you in 1981?
What the fuck's that got to do with anything? What is this? "I've been
into pop music longer than you, so my opinion beats yours"???
Please take the time to reconsider your posts before embarrassing
yourself like this again. On second thoughts, don't. Feel free to go
ahead and make as big a cock of yourself as you can, I could do with
the laughs.
--
mave
----------------------------------------------------
drugs... rock 'n' roll... bad-ass vegas whores...
late-night booty calls... shiny disco balls...
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DC
2003-08-10 23:18:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by mave
Post by AJ Wells
Um check your NME's and MM's from the early early 80s and you will find
DMode treated as the joke they were (and are)...
Treated as a joke by who? desperate museo journalists who were all so
sycophantic that their tongues were far enough up the arses of Bernard
Sumner/Morrisey/Ian McCulloch/Bobby Gillespie (insert name of pseudo
angst merchant here) to taste what they'd had for breakfast?
Hmmm... a fine barrometer of worthiness, then.
Its not just journalists. Many, many, musicans regard Joy Division / New
Order as a major influence on them (e.g. Moby, Pet Shop Boys, Garbage etc).
Depeche Mode may out sell New Order, but their influence has been far less
than that of NO (Mesh doesn't count). The influence on the musicians making
the music is a far more important barometer than either music critics or
record sales...

DC
paleophile
2003-08-11 00:00:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by DC
Its not just journalists. Many, many, musicans regard Joy Division /
New Order as a major influence on them (e.g. Moby, Pet Shop Boys,
Garbage etc). Depeche Mode may out sell New Order, but their
influence has been far less than that of NO (Mesh doesn't count).
The list of *good* musicians who claim DM as an influence is short, I won't
argue that. I think the only DM-influenced act for which I have a lot of
respect is Nine Inch Nails...that's pretty much it. All of these
DM-soundalike synthpop bands are just that: piss poor imitations, and as a
very serious DM fan I find it amazing that other fans even bother with them
for two seconds because everything *I* personally find attractive in DM is
absent with them.

Why don't DM have a long list of fantastic influencees? I can't give an
answer to that which I find reasonable. But then again I wouldn't exactly
call Moby, Pet Shop Boys, and Garbage beyond criticism either.
--
-paleophile (ask for e-mail)

"We don't do photo sessions any more. We had physical dummies,
replicas of ourselves made. They are plastic and more resistant to
photographs." --Ralf Hütter
AJ Wells
2003-08-11 14:49:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by paleophile
Post by DC
Its not just journalists. Many, many, musicans regard Joy Division /
New Order as a major influence on them (e.g. Moby, Pet Shop Boys,
Garbage etc). Depeche Mode may out sell New Order, but their
influence has been far less than that of NO (Mesh doesn't count).
The list of *good* musicians who claim DM as an influence is short, I won't
argue that. I think the only DM-influenced act for which I have a lot of
respect is Nine Inch Nails...
(laughing) Ah yes, another ex hairdresser who cant kill himself correctly...
Post by paleophile
that's pretty much it. All of these
DM-soundalike synthpop bands are just that: piss poor imitations, and as a
very serious DM fan I find it amazing that other fans even bother with them
for two seconds because everything *I* personally find attractive in DM is
absent with them.
What exactly DO you find attractive in Dmode? I have never been able to
figure out what quality people enjoy about them... never ever... even as a
depressed adolescent I thought they were a joke and I cant imagine the
mindlset that would find their skim milk, whining complaint pop absorbing...
Post by paleophile
Why don't DM have a long list of fantastic influencees? I can't give an
answer to that which I find reasonable. But then again I wouldn't exactly
call Moby, Pet Shop Boys, and Garbage beyond criticism either.
Um folks, lets get past the hype and read interviews with artists ranging
from Big Fat Bob Smith (whose entire life and sound was changed overnight by
JD), U2 (who ripped off the entire JD production approach but forgot to
include the good music part) to current innovators like Graham Sutton and
thousands of others who dont sound anything like NO... and even more
importantly, read interviews with artists who work outside of the musical
arena to see how they have been inspired to work in their chosen fields in a
similar way (starting with no talent or ability and scaling the heights of
achievement simply by believing in themselves)... thats the real barometer
of influence; when you can inspire people to live their LIVES differently,
not just buy your record...

Ajw
AJ Wells
2003-08-11 23:11:13 UTC
Permalink
(roaring with laughter)

Boy this guy is absolutely classic!!!! He has Dmode in his collection so
there is no need for NO records as his prized Dmode records are so tasteful
and well designed and well made that any aspect of NO already exists in his
precious Dmode collection!!!!

I absolutely love it!! This crossposting has really brightened my day and
brought a smile to my face...

"Hey I dont need a Picasso or a Van Gogh as I already have a collection of
comic books and those are far superior to anything in their paintings!"

The only reassuring thing is that kids grow up... eventually!

Ajw
Post by AJ Wells
What exactly DO you find attractive in Dmode?
You probably aren't listening as all you want is an affirmation of what
you
already believe (or for all intents and purposes *know*), but here it goes
Depeche Mode is attractive to me because of the high standards of
craftsmanship they apply to every detail of their productions: from
everything to the highly skilled production which, using both technical
know-how and flat musical ability, culls the best aspects of many
different
genres of music and often takes a very experimental attitude towards
creating new sounds and atmospheres (DM have never used the presets in
their
synths), to the close relationship they have with the graphic designers
and
photographers like Anton Corbijn who impart a faithful and positive image
that complements their sound. The fact is that DM is well made and, most
importantly, *deliberately* made music into which a considerable amount of
effort is poured. When listening to DM's classic records there is a real
sense of pride in what was made with which I can identify. And such a
commitment to making such unadultered good music was only possible because
Depeche were signed to a label like Mute whose owner, Daniel Miller, had a
commitment to letting DM develop creatively in a natural and constructive
way instead of subjecting them to the poor treatment that would have been
afforded them by a major label.
Other than that, I do NOT like pop music; you just probably assume I do
for
the fact that I like DM combined with the possibility that you just plain
don't hear the aspects of DM that I find attractive. Depeche just happen
to
do what they do exceptionally and with a dinstinctive amount of skill so I
include them in the list of music I like to fill out my quota of pop
music,
that's all. Anything that I find interesting about New Order for example
could easily be found somewhere on DMs classic records, so including them
in
my record collection would be redundant.
Now, could you tell me what attracts you to New Order?
Post by AJ Wells
Post by paleophile
Why don't DM have a long list of fantastic influencees? I can't
give an answer to that which I find reasonable. But then again I
wouldn't exactly call Moby, Pet Shop Boys, and Garbage beyond
criticism either.
to current
innovators like Graham Sutton and thousands of others who dont sound
anything like NO...
Excuse me...did you say *THOUSANDS* of others? Do you just make these
figures up off the top of your head? I'm a mathematically oriented person
so those sort of numbers actually mean something to me, unlike you who
just
throw them around in an exaggerated fashion when convenient.
--
-paleophile (ask for e-mail)
"We don't do photo sessions any more. We had physical dummies,
replicas of ourselves made. They are plastic and more resistant to
photographs." --Ralf Hütter
Mat Austin Tarbox
2003-08-21 19:05:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by AJ Wells
What exactly DO you find attractive in Dmode?
You probably aren't listening as all you want is an affirmation of what
you
already believe (or for all intents and purposes *know*), but here it goes
Depeche Mode is attractive to me because of the high standards of
craftsmanship they apply to every detail of their productions: from
everything to the highly skilled production which, using both technical
know-how and flat musical ability, culls the best aspects of many
different
genres of music and often takes a very experimental attitude towards
creating new sounds and atmospheres (DM have never used the presets in
their
synths), to the close relationship they have with the graphic designers
and
photographers like Anton Corbijn who impart a faithful and positive image
that complements their sound. The fact is that DM is well made and, most
importantly, *deliberately* made music into which a considerable amount of
effort is poured. When listening to DM's classic records there is a real
sense of pride in what was made with which I can identify. And such a
commitment to making such unadultered good music was only possible because
Depeche were signed to a label like Mute whose owner, Daniel Miller, had a
commitment to letting DM develop creatively in a natural and constructive
way instead of subjecting them to the poor treatment that would have been
afforded them by a major label.
Sounds EXACTLY like the type of crap progrock overproduced crap that Punk
was created to destroy.....

New Order was born from a punk situationist sentiment geared towards
abolishing all SLICK evil corporatized music....

Depeche Mode was born from evil corporatized desires for money and fame....

Depeche Mode was and is the antithesis of art, a pure exploitation of music
for financial gain, via slick production and "highly skilled... ability"

Peter Hook pisses on the pathetic idea of Depeche Mode...... all fashion and
no substance.... the type of band that disgraces the art of sound....

-tarbox
mave
2003-08-21 21:36:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mat Austin Tarbox
Sounds EXACTLY like the type of crap progrock overproduced crap that
Punk was created to destroy.....
LMAO... progrock? DM?? Sadly (for you, it seems) punk didn't destroy
anything except itself.
Post by Mat Austin Tarbox
New Order was born from a punk situationist sentiment geared towards
abolishing all SLICK evil corporatized music....
Nice idea, except that Tony Wilson is the biggest
'corporate-whore-masquerading-as-artistic-guiding-light' the world has
ever seen. Look up the word 'bullshit' in a disctionary... you'll
probably see a picture of him.
Post by Mat Austin Tarbox
Depeche Mode was and is the antithesis of art, a pure exploitation of music
for financial gain, via slick production and "highly skilled... ability"
For all your self-assured references to marginal bands and iffy
journalism, you're starting to show just how narrow and biased your
knowledge of music culture really is. Daniel Miller started Mute
records as response to the creative value and potential he saw in punk.
The synthesizer was and is a punk instrument. Anyone can play one with
one hand, or one finger if necessary. Punk is *not* about spending
angst-ridden teenage years in your bedroom trying to learn to play
guitar to grade standards - or even as well as Hooky - it's about
getting up on stage, doing it and fuck whether you were any good or
not. Anyone who actually took notice of what was going on in 1981 (to
pluck a date from the start of this thread) would tell you that bands
like DM weren't highly skilled at anything except wanting to escape
from suburban boredom.
Post by Mat Austin Tarbox
Peter Hook pisses on the pathetic idea of Depeche Mode......
Remind me again what Peter Hook was good at...?
Post by Mat Austin Tarbox
all fashion and no substance....
ha! where did you get a word like 'substance' from to describe New
Order? Have you resorted to reading album covers to fuel your argument
now? Depeche Mode have about as much fashion sense as my Dad. Again,
anyone that had actually paid attention to *anything* back then, rather
than just wanking over the Unknown Pleasures album cover would know
that being fashionable is something DM never came close to.
Post by Mat Austin Tarbox
the type of band that disgraces the art of sound....
awww... c'mon you're just not trying now. See if you can come up with
some more fantastically deluded crap like before, this is getting fun.
--
mave
----------------------------------------------------
drugs... rock 'n' roll... bad-ass vegas whores...
late-night booty calls... shiny disco balls...


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mave
2003-08-22 12:52:59 UTC
Permalink
look up the word 'dictionary' while you're at it, you'll probably find
the right spelling.


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Mat Austin Tarbox
2003-08-22 17:30:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by mave
look up the word 'dictionary' while you're at it, you'll probably find
the right spelling.
hey, we can have our hilarious jousting about bands, but I would never stoop
to attacking your typing! and i dig your self-deprecation, rare in a
depeche mode fan (who are usually not self-actualized or able to grasp
sarcasm... see fellow dm defender 'pediaphile')

thank god we are both above flaming about typos (the sign that you have won
a usenet argument is if the opponent notes you have misspelled a word) .....
and hey, I enjoy these salvos with you.... i am stunned to find a depeche
mode fan such as yourself who can handle an argument from a factory records
fan.... :^>

at least YOU get that half of what we say is tongue in cheek.... i mean,
shit, i own my share of depeche mode.... but, you know, it is hazy august
and i love to bitch this time of year.... and who can resist making fun of a
junkie lead singer....

ok, back to the fun....

-tarbox
Mat Austin Tarbox
2003-08-22 17:22:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by mave
The synthesizer was and is a punk instrument. Anyone can play one with
one hand, or one finger if necessary. Punk is *not* about spending
angst-ridden teenage years in your bedroom trying to learn to play
guitar to grade standards - or even as well as Hooky - it's about
getting up on stage, doing it and fuck whether you were any good or
not. Anyone who actually took notice of what was going on in 1981 (to
pluck a date from the start of this thread) would tell you that bands
like DM weren't highly skilled at anything except wanting to escape
from suburban boredom.
Never claimed any of the above you attempt to place on me. You seem to have
a penchant for putting your lame one-dimensional ideas into my mouth. But I
wouldn't really expect much more from a DM fan....

I completely agree with you that synthesizers are the ultimate punk
instrument. And have been proclaiming such since before you were born.

But unlike Joy Division, Depeche Mode was born from a desire for fame and
fortune, not any punk ethic.

Synths ARE the ideal punk weapon, but in the hands of a glossy group like
Depeche Mode, any synth just becomes a way to gloss up the songs and make
more money. i.e. many bands use synths, but not many are punk in spirit.

Likewise, most bands which dress and look punk are actually just corporate
whores.

And many bands like New Order may have pop hits but are all about the punk
ethic.

Depeche Mode is a traitor to the causes of punk. They are the band that
punks think about when the word New Wave is uttered to indicate glossy
overproduced musos wasting money in big studios. Just like the worst of
1970s progrock....

-tarbox
mave
2003-08-23 19:37:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mat Austin Tarbox
I completely agree with you that synthesizers are the ultimate punk
instrument. And have been proclaiming such since before you were born.
given that I am a 72 year-old pensioner, I seriously doubt that.
--
mave
----------------------------------------------------
drugs... rock 'n' roll... bad-ass vegas whores...
late-night booty calls... shiny disco balls...


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Mat Austin Tarbox
2003-08-23 22:07:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by mave
Post by Mat Austin Tarbox
I completely agree with you that synthesizers are the ultimate punk
instrument. And have been proclaiming such since before you were born.
given that I am a 72 year-old pensioner, I seriously doubt that.
--
mave
well, actually, I am one of the few surviving soldiers from WWI, fought in
Ardennes against the Krauts....

I lied to get into the war and was only 16 at the time, but have no regrets
at all. I was damn proud to fight the Germans the first time. My son
fought in WW2 and received a Purple Heart in the Battle of the Buldge, lost
an arm but later helped design the first color televisions for General
Electric.

I am 101 years old. Saw Joy Division play, as I was a friend of William
Burroughs and they opened for him. Later I got into New Order, as I
recognized at once that of all the music in the 20th century (and I have
heard a LOT) New Order are easily the best. The Beatles were ok, but were a
bit too self-conscious.

Were you in WW2? You may have run into my son, Alexander Bowlschidt Tarbox
during his stationing south of London...?

-Matthew Tarbox

Mat Austin Tarbox
2003-08-13 22:08:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by paleophile
Post by DC
Its not just journalists. Many, many, musicans regard Joy Division /
New Order as a major influence on them (e.g. Moby, Pet Shop Boys,
Garbage etc). Depeche Mode may out sell New Order, but their
influence has been far less than that of NO (Mesh doesn't count).
The list of *good* musicians who claim DM as an influence is short, I won't
argue that. I think the only DM-influenced act for which I have a lot of
respect is Nine Inch Nails...that's pretty much it.
yikes.... Nine Inch Nails?

I think you just made AJ Wells point for him.....

Depeche Mode are fun, but they are nowhere NEAR the league of New Order...

and if the pathetic poseurs Nine Inch Nails need to be brought into the
discussion, then the ultraposeur 'band' Depeche Mode fans are truly lost....

Depeche Mode fans: please return to your cute little hairdresser synth wave
newsgroup and take care... remember: it was a mistake to mingle with the
New Order folks, cause they eat Depeche Mode fans for breakfast.... now,
stay away.... and go get a cute haircut.... someday, when you get a bit
older, you can post to alt.music.new-order.....

-mat tarbox
AJ Wells
2003-08-14 01:20:03 UTC
Permalink
Indeed... I find it curious that there is any overlap of fans of these two
bands at all... there is certainly no overlap in attitude or worldview...

And yes, as soon as the NIN reference came out, this poor kiddie went into
my "unworthy of response" folder...

Ajw
Post by Mat Austin Tarbox
Post by paleophile
Post by DC
Its not just journalists. Many, many, musicans regard Joy Division /
New Order as a major influence on them (e.g. Moby, Pet Shop Boys,
Garbage etc). Depeche Mode may out sell New Order, but their
influence has been far less than that of NO (Mesh doesn't count).
The list of *good* musicians who claim DM as an influence is short, I
won't
Post by paleophile
argue that. I think the only DM-influenced act for which I have a lot of
respect is Nine Inch Nails...that's pretty much it.
yikes.... Nine Inch Nails?
I think you just made AJ Wells point for him.....
Depeche Mode are fun, but they are nowhere NEAR the league of New Order...
and if the pathetic poseurs Nine Inch Nails need to be brought into the
discussion, then the ultraposeur 'band' Depeche Mode fans are truly lost....
Depeche Mode fans: please return to your cute little hairdresser synth wave
newsgroup and take care... remember: it was a mistake to mingle with the
New Order folks, cause they eat Depeche Mode fans for breakfast.... now,
stay away.... and go get a cute haircut.... someday, when you get a bit
older, you can post to alt.music.new-order.....
-mat tarbox
paleophile
2003-08-14 04:11:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by AJ Wells
And yes, as soon as the NIN reference came out, this poor kiddie went into
my "unworthy of response" folder...
I will not make the mistake again of allowing myself to be goaded into
further verbal attacks. This discussion should have been already over.

Instead, I will wish you well and offer the sincere hope that your tastes in
music and art serve you well and enhance your life in some meaningful way.
That is all. I believe I would speak on behalf of many here at
alt.music.depeche-mode by expressing these sentiments.
Post by AJ Wells
Indeed... I find it curious that there is any overlap of fans of these two
bands at all... there is certainly no overlap in attitude or worldview...
That is because you have no idea of my personal worldview, or how my choice
to listen to those two bands relates to it. That's all I will offer in
regards to that.


--
-paleophile (ask for e-mail)

"We don't do photo sessions any more. We had physical dummies,
replicas of ourselves made. They are plastic and more resistant to
photographs." --Ralf Hütter
Mat Austin Tarbox
2003-08-17 22:48:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by AJ Wells
Indeed... I find it curious that there is any overlap of fans of these two
bands at all... there is certainly no overlap in attitude or
worldview...
Post by AJ Wells
And yes, as soon as the NIN reference came out, this poor kiddie went into
my "unworthy of response" folder...
Ajw
You are the absolute dictionary definition of self-centered arrogance.
Watch your step next time you cross the road, ok? I'd hate the world to
be deprived of something as valuable as your over-inflated ego.
--
mave
heheh... you have a lot to learn about us new order fans....

and even more to learn about aj.... (not to speak for him, but usually he
takes such pathetic flames as compliments...)

I suppose us factory records fans never even stop to consider ourselves as
arrogant. It isn't a word I even speak. Arrogance is just the jealous
label that someone who is an idiot gives to someone who is usually right
about everything.... idiots just can't stand to admit that there ARE some
people in the world who are right about most everything, and the idiots thus
lash out with silly words like 'arrogant' -

But, I can see why depeche mode fans would find new order fans to be
'arrogant'. Just a difference in class.... folks concerned about being
arrogant are concerned about being fashionable, and folks who are concerned
about being fashionable are very often folks who buy depeche mode records,
and get fancy haircuts in salons..... (you see, new order is about the buzz
in corner barbershops, whereas depeche mode is about styling gel in girly
salons....)

-tarbox
paleophile
2003-08-18 12:18:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mat Austin Tarbox
You are the absolute dictionary definition of self-centered arrogance.
Watch your step next time you cross the road, ok? I'd hate the world to
be deprived of something as valuable as your over-inflated ego.
heheh... you have a lot to learn about us new order fans....
and even more to learn about aj.... (not to speak for him, but usually he
takes such pathetic flames as compliments...)
I suppose us factory records fans never even stop to consider ourselves as
arrogant. It isn't a word I even speak. Arrogance is just the jealous
label that someone who is an idiot gives to someone who is usually right
about everything.... idiots just can't stand to admit that there ARE some
people in the world who are right about most everything, and the idiots thus
lash out with silly words like 'arrogant' -
Right about everything, eh? "Everything" encompasses quite a lot, about 15
billion years and vast swathes of space-time, and all the mysteries that go
along with that, some of which are probably incomprehsensible and maybe even
inaccessible to the human mind. To say you are right about "everything" is
not only arrogant but idiotic.

Mave was right, you two make yourself look like cocks without much help from
us. Even the smartest person in the world has a healthy respect for their
own limitations.

I'll be open minded about this whole thing and give the benefit of the doubt
to New Order fans in general and assume your attitude doesn't represent them
as a whole.


--
-paleophile (ask for e-mail)

"We don't do photo sessions any more. We had physical dummies,
replicas of ourselves made. They are plastic and more resistant to
photographs." --Ralf Hütter

Vote in '04: http://www.draftwesleyclark.com
AJ Wells
2003-08-18 21:28:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by paleophile
Post by Mat Austin Tarbox
You are the absolute dictionary definition of self-centered arrogance.
Watch your step next time you cross the road, ok? I'd hate the world to
be deprived of something as valuable as your over-inflated ego.
heheh... you have a lot to learn about us new order fans....
and even more to learn about aj.... (not to speak for him, but usually he
takes such pathetic flames as compliments...)
I suppose us factory records fans never even stop to consider ourselves as
arrogant. It isn't a word I even speak. Arrogance is just the jealous
label that someone who is an idiot gives to someone who is usually right
about everything.... idiots just can't stand to admit that there ARE some
people in the world who are right about most everything, and the idiots
thus
Post by Mat Austin Tarbox
lash out with silly words like 'arrogant' -
Right about everything, eh? "Everything" encompasses quite a lot, about 15
billion years and vast swathes of space-time, and all the mysteries that go
along with that, some of which are probably incomprehsensible and maybe even
inaccessible to the human mind. To say you are right about "everything" is
not only arrogant but idiotic.
Mave was right, you two make yourself look like cocks without much help from
us. Even the smartest person in the world has a healthy respect for their
own limitations.
I'll be open minded about this whole thing and give the benefit of the doubt
to New Order fans in general and assume your attitude doesn't represent them
as a whole.
Actually you are lucky enough to be enjoying some illumination from fans who
in particular represent the original spirit of postpunk as embodied by early
to mid period NO... although even that bands recent poor output has sullied
their reputation, you can bask in the glow of knowledge coming directly from
those who lived through the times that produced that music and who you would
do mighty well to attempt to comprehend... you know you want to, you just
cant quite do it yet ;)

Actually its very simple; New Order arose from the ashes of a movement which
was fueled by hate, utter lack of talent, bad taste, contradictions, noise
and protest... Dmode embody the "well played", well produced, tasteful,
prepackaged, lifeless, lifestyle music that punk hated more than anything
else and wanted to destroy... of course fans of one approach will not
understand the other and those foolish or inexperienced enough to think they
are "right" will feel threatened when their limited worldview is illuminated
for what it is... but that matters little...

History is already sorting out the imporance and impact of JD/NO and the
entire Factory approach to music and life... those who cant comprehend that
or who choose not to be aware of history are doomed to repeat it as they
say...

Ignore at your peril!

Ajw
paleophile
2003-08-19 11:25:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by AJ Wells
Actually you are lucky enough to be enjoying some illumination
Anybody who is this sure of their own self-worth is somebody whom I can
safely ignore without missing too much.

*plonk*


--
-paleophile (ask for e-mail)

"We don't do photo sessions any more. We had physical dummies,
replicas of ourselves made. They are plastic and more resistant to
photographs." --Ralf Hütter

Vote in '04: http://www.draftwesleyclark.com
Mat Austin Tarbox
2003-08-21 18:56:35 UTC
Permalink
I love how you repress the point by diverting into building a strawman
argument.....

as if anyone would honestly believe they are right about everything, and
mean it.

What an idiot you are!

It is funny tho to read your posts and see how seethingly angry you get
about pretty much nothing....

If you were really honest with yourself, you would really have ignored us
and not have posted anything.

(funny to see a post claiming that you are ignoring the thread, when you
should have just refrained from any post if honestly ignoring the
thread....)

But, deep down inside you know that you are concerned, and thus you post
just enough to keep it going....

You reach out to the truth you know is right....

You remain and even read this.....

You realize that the fans of New Order know something you do not, and you
wish you could fathom it.....

-Tarbox
Post by paleophile
Post by AJ Wells
Actually you are lucky enough to be enjoying some illumination
Anybody who is this sure of their own self-worth is somebody whom I can
safely ignore without missing too much.
*plonk*
--
-paleophile (ask for e-mail)
"We don't do photo sessions any more. We had physical dummies,
replicas of ourselves made. They are plastic and more resistant to
photographs." --Ralf Hütter
Vote in '04: http://www.draftwesleyclark.com
mave
2003-08-19 14:45:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by AJ Wells
Dmode embody the "well played"
As opposed to the 'learn Bontempi in 24 hours' crap that Gillian slaps
out, you mean?
Post by AJ Wells
History is already sorting out the imporance and impact of JD/NO
Say 'Hi' to Ian Curtis for me. Oh that's right... you can't...
--
mave
----------------------------------------------------
drugs... rock 'n' roll... bad-ass vegas whores...
late-night booty calls... shiny disco balls...


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mave
2003-08-19 14:46:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by AJ Wells
Ignore at your peril!
oooooohh.... 'peril' eh? Not understanding New Odour is *bound* to keep
me awake at night.
--
mave
----------------------------------------------------
drugs... rock 'n' roll... bad-ass vegas whores...
late-night booty calls... shiny disco balls...


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Mat Austin Tarbox
2003-08-21 19:00:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by mave
Post by AJ Wells
Ignore at your peril!
oooooohh.... 'peril' eh? Not understanding New Odour is *bound* to keep
me awake at night.
--
mave
well, you and your buddy pediaphile seem to be upset about SOMEthing....

hmmm.....

someone hit a nerve.... (or do depeche mode fans only care about uncollapsed
VEINS?)

-tarbox
Bufford L. Hatchett
2003-08-15 03:54:07 UTC
Permalink
Both bands suck.
That's quite a vocabulary you got there 'Doctor'. Here's a couple more
fore you to double the size of your collection: "Fuck" and "Off".
Have fun.
Uriah Heep was and is better than New Order and Depeche Mode put
together.
Peter J Ross
2003-08-15 04:59:08 UTC
Permalink
On Thu, 14 Aug 2003 22:54:07 -0500, a team of surgeons from
alt.fan.karl-malden.nose removed the following benign growth from
Post by Bufford L. Hatchett
Both bands suck.
That's quite a vocabulary you got there 'Doctor'. Here's a couple more
fore you to double the size of your collection: "Fuck" and "Off".
Have fun.
Uriah Heep was and is better than New Order and Depeche Mode put
together.
True.

Peter Green's Fleetwood Mac was good too.
--
PJR :-)
mhm34x8
news:alt.fan.pjr
(also in google groups)
http://www.petitmorte.net/pjr/
(will not work in your obsolete browser)
AJ Wells
2003-08-11 14:36:05 UTC
Permalink
Hey kids, I'm guessing this kiddie came over from one of the crossposts...
arent these kids cute these days?
Post by mave
Post by AJ Wells
Um check your NME's and MM's from the early early 80s and you will find
DMode treated as the joke they were (and are)...
Treated as a joke by who? desperate museo journalists who were all so
sycophantic that their tongues were far enough up the arses of Bernard
Sumner/Morrisey/Ian McCulloch/Bobby Gillespie (insert name of pseudo
angst merchant here) to taste what they'd had for breakfast?
Hmmm... a fine barrometer of worthiness, then.
Um no it was basically most anyone who was listening to music critically at
the time...
Post by mave
Post by AJ Wells
and around the time of PCL
there was a mainstream article (I think in the NYtimes or Village Voice)
New York Times??? New York Fucking Times???? Well if they didn't like
DM then they *must* have been crap, huh? Can't argue with the towering
monolith of musical taste that is the New York Times... jesus
Actually the Wall Street Journal had one of the best articles about Joy
Division around the time of Unknown Pleasures release... dont put it down
just because a publication uses words that you havent heard before...
eventually you will make it past second grade and then all will be revealed
to you...
Post by mave
Post by AJ Wells
that likened Dmode and the rest of the "technopop" field to "twittering toy
music" compared to NO's "trapped, stinging sense of otherness"
one man's 'trapped, stinging sense of otherness' is another man's
'over-wrought, emotionally stagnant sense of having heard it all
before'
(laughing) I do love this twit...

I think you must be the first person ever to describe NO's vital early to
mid period as "stagnant"... and I mean ever!
Post by mave
Post by AJ Wells
By the way where were you in 1981?
What the fuck's that got to do with anything? What is this? "I've been
into pop music longer than you, so my opinion beats yours"???
It has plenty to do with perceiving pop music (or pop culture) in the
context in which it was made... since you clearly werent listening during
the introduction to this class, I will reiterate how I love bands like the
Velvet Underground, but I can never experience their music in its full
context because I wasnt there... of course you can listen to pop music after
the fact, but the beauty of a lot of pop is that it only makes real sense
during its time... thats why its POP, folks... it changes like fashion and
even the good evaporates into the air... even bands who manage to chuck in
an element of timelessness have aspects of what they do that disappear once
the clock ticks on... thats the BEAUTY of it actually... to not understand
that is to miss out on so much of what makes the wonderfully ephemeral,
frustratingly contradictory, frothy world of pop so delicious, but so light
on substance...

Please stay awake during future lessons; the rest of the class doesnt need
to hear me fill you in on things you should already know...

Oh and you didnt answer the question... where WERE you in 1981?
Post by mave
Please take the time to reconsider your posts before embarrassing
yourself like this again. On second thoughts, don't. Feel free to go
ahead and make as big a cock of yourself as you can, I could do with
the laughs.
I have made a career out of doing just that, and I havent had anyone tell me
that they were the worse off for getting a little bit of illumination...
even those thick types eventually feel the warming rays of knowledge
penetrate that closed, tiny skull... just wait, it will happen for you too,
my silly child

Ajw
paleophile
2003-08-11 18:06:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by AJ Wells
Post by mave
New York Times??? New York Fucking Times???? Well if they didn't like
DM then they *must* have been crap, huh? Can't argue with the
towering monolith of musical taste that is the New York Times...
jesus
Actually the Wall Street Journal had one of the best articles about
Joy Division around the time of Unknown Pleasures release... dont put
it down just because a publication uses words that you havent heard
before...
Oh, come the fuck on! As if you've demonstrated any considerable command of
English with your collection of tripe arbitrarily concatenated by ellipses
at irregular intervals. What a bunch of shite. Come back when you've taken
and passed some basic English classes at your local community college and
maybe your insults will do more than tickle and amuse.
Post by AJ Wells
Post by mave
one man's 'trapped, stinging sense of otherness' is another man's
'over-wrought, emotionally stagnant sense of having heard it all
before'
(laughing) I do love this twit...
I think you must be the first person ever to describe NO's vital
early to mid period as "stagnant"... and I mean ever!
Wrong, dumbass. He was describing the ENTIRETY of NO's body of work as
"stagnant". Leave it to somebody with both a poor and selective reading
comprehension as yours to put it that way.
Post by AJ Wells
Post by mave
Post by AJ Wells
By the way where were you in 1981?
What the fuck's that got to do with anything? What is this? "I've
been into pop music longer than you, so my opinion beats yours"???
It has plenty to do with perceiving pop music (or pop culture) in the
context in which it was made...
<snip another paragraph loosely concatenated with more ellipses>

...which you've ALSO never made clear how it was relevant to this
discussion! But the way your thinking goes is pretty much: "hey, if I can
throw some smart-sounding BS out there about appreciating music in its
concurrent context, even if I haven't made clear how it's relevant to the
discussion, I'll look like a real winner! I'm such a kewl and experienced
music appreciation guy!!"
Post by AJ Wells
Post by mave
Please take the time to reconsider your posts before embarrassing
yourself like this again. On second thoughts, don't. Feel free to go
ahead and make as big a cock of yourself as you can, I could do with
the laughs.
I have made a career out of doing just that
Yeah, we got that at most. Thanks for clarifying.


--
-paleophile (ask for e-mail)

"We don't do photo sessions any more. We had physical dummies,
replicas of ourselves made. They are plastic and more resistant to
photographs." --Ralf Hütter
AJ Wells
2003-08-11 23:17:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by paleophile
Post by AJ Wells
Post by mave
New York Times??? New York Fucking Times???? Well if they didn't like
DM then they *must* have been crap, huh? Can't argue with the
towering monolith of musical taste that is the New York Times...
jesus
Actually the Wall Street Journal had one of the best articles about
Joy Division around the time of Unknown Pleasures release... dont put
it down just because a publication uses words that you havent heard
before...
Oh, come the fuck on! As if you've demonstrated any considerable command of
English with your collection of tripe arbitrarily concatenated by ellipses
at irregular intervals. What a bunch of shite. Come back when you've taken
and passed some basic English classes at your local community college and
maybe your insults will do more than tickle and amuse.
Post by AJ Wells
Post by mave
one man's 'trapped, stinging sense of otherness' is another man's
'over-wrought, emotionally stagnant sense of having heard it all
before'
(laughing) I do love this twit...
I think you must be the first person ever to describe NO's vital
early to mid period as "stagnant"... and I mean ever!
Wrong, dumbass. He was describing the ENTIRETY of NO's body of work as
"stagnant". Leave it to somebody with both a poor and selective reading
comprehension as yours to put it that way.
Ah thats even more ignorant then... of course you can claim that important
music and art isnt your cup of tea, but when you dismiss it entirely it says
far more about your ignorance than it does about the music... and this
poster is mighty, mighty ignorant eh kids?
Post by paleophile
Post by AJ Wells
Post by mave
Post by AJ Wells
By the way where were you in 1981?
What the fuck's that got to do with anything? What is this? "I've
been into pop music longer than you, so my opinion beats yours"???
It has plenty to do with perceiving pop music (or pop culture) in the
context in which it was made...
<snip another paragraph loosely concatenated with more ellipses>
...which you've ALSO never made clear how it was relevant to this
discussion! But the way your thinking goes is pretty much: "hey, if I can
throw some smart-sounding BS out there about appreciating music in its
concurrent context, even if I haven't made clear how it's relevant to the
discussion, I'll look like a real winner! I'm such a kewl and experienced
music appreciation guy!!"
Um we still dont know where you were in 1981... and you didnt say anything
about the aspects of pop culture that the class was discussing... if you
want relevance, bring some along yerself
Post by paleophile
Post by AJ Wells
Post by mave
Please take the time to reconsider your posts before embarrassing
yourself like this again. On second thoughts, don't. Feel free to go
ahead and make as big a cock of yourself as you can, I could do with
the laughs.
(laughing) hey kids, do yourselves a favor and just do a little research
before you come to class... its so easy to look up the history of this
particular teachers classes, and they have been held a number of times
before... complete with the occasional rant of the clueless who later
realize which end of the pool they have found themselves in... do yourself a
favor and just do a little learning and thinking before shooting off your
fingers...

Ajw
technocon
2003-08-14 08:15:14 UTC
Permalink
I find it flattering that the last few days worth of info was tagged
to my last post, yet I was not invoked. May be a Usenet glitch, but
none-the-less....

So, as I iterated, then reiterated, a comparison of the two bands is
subjective. They took different approaches to music. Both did what
they did as best they could. One proved more popular to the 'Masses'
than the other, but that does not nullify the achievements of the other.
Both tried to innovate with varying success. NO's growing inclusion
of, and consequential dependance on, synthetic riffs and percussion
cut a large part of their audience out. DM's attempts at adding guitars
and natural percussion did the same. Both exhibit exceptional song-
writing abilities, though NO's tend to be more obscure in the meaning.
And that's where most of their fan's allegience lies. It's not so much
about who played what instrument better, but about how the lyrics
meshed with the music and how it made you feel. Bernard's near-
monotonic cacophony melded with the basslines well, as did
Gahan's tremolo mesh with DM's melodies.

So, as I said... neither is 'better' than the other... they're different.
When I'm feeling nostalgic, yet melancholy, I spin-up the New Order
discs, and when I want a bit of bounce to bring me out of the darkness,
I queue D'mode. I find both to be influential to my musical style, though
most of will not encounter my work.

So, if you're feeling extraordinary and something's got a hold on you but
you're needing a black celebration tonight so you can dream on, just
remember, your own personal jesus is waiting to give you a perfect kiss.
This may be some form of sub-culture, but you can shake the disease left
from suffering a blue monday. It just takes a little confusion to mesh with
somebody so you can learn that every little counts, no, everything counts,
then it's time for a new life. Praise some little 15 and do some crystal.
In the end you'll know who's the master and servant. It really is a
bizzare love triangle when you're trying to get the balance right.

Well, guess I've lost control again. But I'm flexible....
Good thing I've got camoflauge.
Post by AJ Wells
Post by paleophile
Post by AJ Wells
Post by mave
New York Times??? New York Fucking Times???? Well if they didn't like
DM then they *must* have been crap, huh? Can't argue with the
towering monolith of musical taste that is the New York Times...
jesus
Actually the Wall Street Journal had one of the best articles about
Joy Division around the time of Unknown Pleasures release... dont put
it down just because a publication uses words that you havent heard
before...
Oh, come the fuck on! As if you've demonstrated any considerable
command
Post by AJ Wells
of
Post by paleophile
English with your collection of tripe arbitrarily concatenated by ellipses
at irregular intervals. What a bunch of shite. Come back when you've
taken
Post by paleophile
and passed some basic English classes at your local community college and
maybe your insults will do more than tickle and amuse.
Post by AJ Wells
Post by mave
one man's 'trapped, stinging sense of otherness' is another man's
'over-wrought, emotionally stagnant sense of having heard it all
before'
(laughing) I do love this twit...
I think you must be the first person ever to describe NO's vital
early to mid period as "stagnant"... and I mean ever!
Wrong, dumbass. He was describing the ENTIRETY of NO's body of work as
"stagnant". Leave it to somebody with both a poor and selective reading
comprehension as yours to put it that way.
Ah thats even more ignorant then... of course you can claim that important
music and art isnt your cup of tea, but when you dismiss it entirely it says
far more about your ignorance than it does about the music... and this
poster is mighty, mighty ignorant eh kids?
Post by paleophile
Post by AJ Wells
Post by mave
Post by AJ Wells
By the way where were you in 1981?
What the fuck's that got to do with anything? What is this? "I've
been into pop music longer than you, so my opinion beats yours"???
It has plenty to do with perceiving pop music (or pop culture) in the
context in which it was made...
<snip another paragraph loosely concatenated with more ellipses>
...which you've ALSO never made clear how it was relevant to this
discussion! But the way your thinking goes is pretty much: "hey, if I can
throw some smart-sounding BS out there about appreciating music in its
concurrent context, even if I haven't made clear how it's relevant to the
discussion, I'll look like a real winner! I'm such a kewl and experienced
music appreciation guy!!"
Um we still dont know where you were in 1981... and you didnt say anything
about the aspects of pop culture that the class was discussing... if you
want relevance, bring some along yerself
Post by paleophile
Post by AJ Wells
Post by mave
Please take the time to reconsider your posts before embarrassing
yourself like this again. On second thoughts, don't. Feel free to go
ahead and make as big a cock of yourself as you can, I could do with
the laughs.
(laughing) hey kids, do yourselves a favor and just do a little research
before you come to class... its so easy to look up the history of this
particular teachers classes, and they have been held a number of times
before... complete with the occasional rant of the clueless who later
realize which end of the pool they have found themselves in... do yourself a
favor and just do a little learning and thinking before shooting off your
fingers...
Ajw
{USER_FIRSTNAME} {USER_LASTNAME}
2003-08-15 02:16:03 UTC
Permalink
Weighing in on a 'very weighty' matter -- The snipped paragraph at the end
of my post is the *most* enlightened paragraph concerning this whole
discussion. Engaging in a comparison of "who is the better band" is much
like comparing political or religious affiliations. Pepsi versus Coca-Cola
anyone? These all are simply a matter of personal choice.

No one is right, no one is wrong and there will not be a cookie given for
the correct answer.

There is not a critic, news article, MTV DJ, public or private persona who
can change my personal opinion based simply on their own vaunted opinion - I
assume from the previous posts, that it is much the same for all who
expressed a coherent opinion.

*My* DM collection resides next to my NIN collection which resides next to
my Dead Can Dance Collection which is conveniently located near Metallica,
Ministry, the Cocteau Twins and Siouxsie oh... and NO ... each album holds
many memories and compliments my varied moods.

To use colloquialism -- "grow a set" and stop comparing who's opinion counts
greater - as it is only one's chosen deity(ies) whose opinion(s) matter.

If you wish to discuss what points make each band unique or the influence
that EACH of these bands have had on the current stream of pop culture then
by all means cross-post. If not - please return to your original list.

~wyld_orchid

"It's nice to be important, It's more important to be nice"
Post by technocon
So, if you're feeling extraordinary and something's got a hold on you but
you're needing a black celebration tonight so you can dream on, just
remember, your own personal jesus is waiting to give you a perfect kiss.
This may be some form of sub-culture, but you can shake the disease left
from suffering a blue monday. It just takes a little confusion to mesh with
somebody so you can learn that every little counts, no, everything counts,
then it's time for a new life. Praise some little 15 and do some crystal.
In the end you'll know who's the master and servant. It really is a
bizzare love triangle when you're trying to get the balance right.
Mike Loutris
2003-08-09 16:41:36 UTC
Permalink
Hmmm, some character compares to mediocre bands, says "Go!" and look at
all of you go! Gee, I wonder if someone posts "Stop" you would all just
stop posting ridiculous topics like this.
And as far as any of this having to do with composition ...?
Have any of these groups made it past triads or seventh chords?
Any serial compositions under their belt?
Maybe a little polytonality or transient modal shifts?
New Order or Depeche Mode?
I guess I'd have to say: Zzzzzzzzzz........
Mike
Dentaku
2003-08-15 20:49:58 UTC
Permalink
Ka-el <***@netzero.net> schreef in berichtnieuws
***@posting.google.com...
| New Order vs DMode? hard to tell who's better? let's see?
| well, who sold more albums? who's better playing live concert? who's
| got more
| international and commercial success? which band had more chart hits
| around
| the world? not to be bias w/ Dmode, I'm a new order fan too.. correct
| me if I'm wrong, but DMode kicks new order's behind in every
| category..




But DM is catching up NO rather quickly in the 'bring out as much
compilations in the shortest possible time'category
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